Tuesday, January 19, 2010

Neanderthal, Cro-Magnon, Humans and Giants

I was watching PBS the other day and a NOVA-like show was visiting an institute of human evolution which had numerous remains of Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon (not called that any more). It is currently believed as far as I can tell that scientists believe that Neanderthals and Early Man (Cro-Magnon), lived in Europe at the same time but didn't mix. And then by some unexplained mystery Neanderthals who are believed to have lived on the Earth as early as 600,000 bc died out after Cro-Magnon moved in about 30,000 bc.

First, I am of the opinion that all radioactive isotopic dating is wrong as the rate of cosmic rays hitting the Earth which produces isoptopes is never constant and therefore the ratio of radioactive isotopes is not constant. Therefore, these dating techniques together with DNA mutation rates in mtDNA and yDNA studies are unfortunately incorrect.

However, I think the Bible may give us some clues to who are and what happened to what scientists call Neanderthal, Cro-Magnon, and Humans. John in Revelation was shown 4 beasts who stood around the throne of God. Joseph Smith asked God if these 4 beasts represented 4 individuals or classes. Joseph Smith was told that they represented both individuals and classes. The interesting thing about these 4 magnificent beasts full of eyes and wings (knowledge and power) is that one of the 4 had the face of a man. The significance of this is that this beast with the face of a man, was not a man. Could this beast have represented the Neanderthal?

Thinking along these lines, if Neanderthal and Human's lived together, did Humans and Neanderthal ever mix? The NOVA program said no but scientists are mixed on this issue because they now consider Cro-Magnon to be human and not hybrid. However, the Genesis story may suggest Humans and Neanderthal did mix. Genesis tells a bazaar tale of the sons of god intermixing with the daughters of man. The result of this forbidden mixing were offspring referred to as the Giants. Could the 6-7 ft Cro-Magnon remains represent the Giants spoken of in the Bible? If Cro-Magnon are the Giants, the Bible tells us that most if not all did not survive the global flood (see Gen 6:4, Deut 2:20-21).

20 comments:

Jared* said...

"all radioactive isotopic dating is wrong"

All of it? Cosmic rays only affect carbon-14 dating (not all radioisotope dating). The problem is well known to scientists and they have ways of calibrating and cross-checking C14 dating. Even the uncalibrated dates are off only by about 10% at the most. Hope that helps.

BRoz said...

Cosmic Rays do not only affect C13/C14. Showers of subatomic particles rain down through the Earth and generate isotopes of every sort. Isotopes are continually being formed.

BRoz said...

Im sure the similar minded people that gave us your curve also gave us the CO2 hockey stick graph.

please explain why you think cosmic rays would make isotopes in C but not in any other elements.

Also, know that trees can make multiple rings per year or no rings.

BRoz said...

The oldest tree is 5000 years old, im not sure how you extrapolate 50000 from that. These are computer models and they can change as quickly as scientists find out their assumptions are bogus like this updated graph demonstrates.

Anonymous said...

"Could this beast have represented Neanderthal?" Wow. And you think scientists read into things!

BRoz said...

Yes, I am reading this into the text. That is why I presented the hypothesis as a question. Please tell me why you are having a negative visceral response to the idea.

Tom the Younger said...

I agree with Jared*, your casual dismissal of ALL radioisotope dating is both arbitrary and simplistic. Why the casual brush off? Taring everyone who uses radioisotope dating with the CO2 Hockey Stick graph is silly.

I have a testimony of the prophet Joseph Smith and the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. I also have reasonable confidence in radioisotope dating. I wish I fully understood where Adam and Eve fit in history. In the meantime happy to follow them in making and keeping covenants with God.

I certainly don't agree with all the theories of history being bandied about, but it wouldn't hurt (much) to give the scientists and engineers who developed radioisotope dating a bit more credit for basic intelligence.

Jared* said...

The fact that cosmic rays produce C14, and that fluctuations in the amount produced can throw off C14/C13 ratios is well known. The issue is not whether cosmic rays can make any other isotopes, it is whether they make the ones commonly used for radiometric dating. I am not aware of any (even after doing some Googling), and I would be pleased if you could point me to them if you know of any. But speaking of cosmic rays producing isotopes, you might want to read about cosmic ray exposure dating. It turns out that cosmic rays produce certain isotopes (in situ cosmogenic nuclei) in extremely low amounts in only the first meter or two of exposed rock, and this can be used to determine how long these rocks were at the surface.

Now you may think this leap of faith is unwarranted, but I have faith that geophysicists and geochronologists are not complete idiots when it comes to recognizing and dealing with confounding physical processes.

"The oldest tree is 5000 years old, im not sure how you extrapolate 50000 from that."

Dendrochronology does not only rely on living trees; dead trees are also useful. Apparently the dendrochronology record goes back 10,000 years. But you don't extrapolate that to 50,000, you find other independent cross-checks like the seasonal layers in ice cores, lake varves, coral growth, etc. And where possible, you check different isotopes, or other dating methods like thermoluminescence, or optically stimulated luminescence. This kind of information is easily found on the internet; try Wikipedia for starters.

BRoz said...

The criticism of "all radio-isotopic methods" is simplistic because a major argument for this type of dating is how well all these techniques correlate together.

However, I just want to remind you of the assumptions going into the calculations of say K40/Ar40 that the object being dated had no Ar40 when it was created or you know exactly how much Ar40 was there, and that no K40 or Ar40 has been added, created, converted, or lost. If there has been creation, conversion, adding or subtracting you know exactly how much.

Also, when you are talking about half-lives of 1.3 billion yrs such as with K40/Ar40 you dont need much adding, subtracting, conversion, or creation of Ar40 in the sample to mess up the answer.

David B said...

I'm sorry, I actuly wasn't making an argument for evolution. I do not believe in evoltion that one thing evolves into another type of thing. I do believe in adaptation. However I do not have a problem with Neanderthals with an animal spirit having lived on the Earth prior to Adam. I do not believe Adam is connected to them.

I think the marrying out of the covenant principal is what this story is teaching.

However, I think in the case of Genesis this is speaking of the literal sons of God mixing with Neanderthal which caused a corruption of DNA and why human lifespan shortened. And this would be why the Bible makes the point that Naoh was perfect in his generation.

Anonymous said...

Hi there. interesting thread about neanderthals and humans; it seems that discussing "that" was the original idea of David B. so I don't understand how suddenly the thread became a discussion on cosmic rays and carbon dating and evolution.
Anyway, commenting on the actual topic,
David B. said "Genesis tells a bazaar tale of the sons of god intermixing with the daughters of man. The result of this forbidden mixing were offspring referred to as the Giants." - I think this idea doesn't come so much from the bible but from an apocryphal book named the book of enoch. the book is thus of "questionable authenticity". The prophet Joseph Smith taught that the apocrypha was at some point of truth origin but was later changed so much that little truth can be found there in nowadays.
Thus, the passage in question must be analyzed in context with inspired revelation: it refers to interfaith marriage, more than interspecies marriagae! Interesting idea though.

Anonymous said...

My opinion frankly, is that to be thinking about things that are not important to your salvation as a member of the church, is futile.

Next you will probably he thinking man and dinosaur lived together like Sarah Pali, right?

. All you need to know is that Jesus is the Christ and that you need to live a life worthy of the Celestial Kingdom, anything more than that is kind of blasphemous, don't you think?

Don't, as President Hinckley said on 60 mins, get all caught up in little flicks of history.

Anonymous said...

that last comment that last comment that was posted about not being caught up in little flicks of history is an ignorant statement. Also why would you be so judgemental about the guy who posted this topic, it must have interested you enough for you to read what he had to say. That would place you with the people getting caught up in little flicks of history though don't you think? I think this is a very iknteresting topic, and no matter what denomination you belong to you cannot dismiss things of relevance. Ignorance is bliss and if that is how you want to be then good for you, but don't come on here to judge.

marv thompson said...

I walk into a ancient ruins and take a sample of a wall.When I carbon date this sample can I tell you how old the ruins are.The answer is no,I can tell you how old the materials are that made the ruins but not their age.Joseph smith said the Earth was organized not created.You can tell how old the material that built the earth is but you can not tell how long it has been in it's current form.Most creationist agree that the 7 days of creation may not be the same as we now determine days.Gods plan while cover all good men no matter what they believe about how old the Earth is.

Anonymous said...

The Bible is not historically accurate. So using it to explain history is really irrelevant. Besides the KJV was written by Europeans who at that present time thought the world was flat, so how smart do you think they were?...Not too smart. There was no Adam & Eve because the English language is only 1500 yrs old and Hebrew language is only 5-7K yrs old so their names would not have been Adam nor Eve. Also snakes can't talk since they have no vocal chords so that Adam & Eve story is a myth. Also this article leaves out the fact that Africans are early humans as they are the oldest race on the Earth. So to call Cro-Magnon "Early Man" is scientifically incorrect.

Anonymous said...

Hey i totally agree with you on this statement because i watched ancient aliens and was referring to the bible and i thought of it myself researching how cro magnon were bigger than us and we considered them as giants and how we misinterpret the bible because its basically a history book but a little too exaggerated but has certain true facts described differently to people back then

AE_KingOfTexas said...

Funny thing about cro-magnon man is all white people have some of the same genetic markers. These are not found in blacks.

Summer said...

I think this question is so interesting. We may not have all the answers now, but no worries, more pieces of the puzzle will be revealed when God thinks we're ready. I believe that many pieces of the puzzle look alike and sometimes it's hard to distinguish where they fit in place, but if we focus on just our part and place in this massive jigsaw puzzle, God will reveal here a little and there a little. After all, we are entitled to know the truth of all things if we are humble seekers of the truth. If you have felt the spirit and the goodness that comes from reading and praying, then hold on to that. Just remember God is the one who sees and knows all and we are looking through a slowly evolving and advancing telescope. I mean it's a blessing that God allows us to discover and analyze His creations at all. With our limited capacity to comprehend the complexities and intricacies of His vast universe and with our natural tendencies as humans to judge and make mistakes, we shouldn't jump to conclusions so quickly and demand to know the truth now. Hope for the truth but be patient and maybe just mabye more will be revealed abundantly because you're being a good child. God loves to bless His obedient children. Now if only we can get the rest of the world on board.... ;)

Raul Sandoval said...

In the book of Moses 7:15 the giants are first mentioned as opposed to Enoch teachings. then in Moses 818 they search Noah to kill him. Then I propose the nephilim or whatever you want to call them might come from some of Cain descendants or a mixture with other sons of Adam, maybe through a DNA alteration provoked by Satan power to bear powerful opponents to the Lords plan. Then although Noah and his sons were perfect or non corrupted o that offspring, lets remember that in Abraham 1:21-24 one of Ham's wives was Egiptus a Canaan descendant probably with former giants blood traces, from where Rephaim, Anakim, Emim and Philistines giants as Og of Basan and Golias and his four brethren might have been descended.

Dotheresearch said...

I've recently been caught up in the theories proposed by Wayne May. I don't have doubts about the truthfulness of the BOM. However, my mind tends to seek out a visual reference for all things scriptural. I had problems with the Arnold Frieberg interpretations of Book of Mormon characters and other artistic renderings put out by the church because it just looked wrong. I've since been able to get more of a visual when I delve into the research of Wayne May. I'm sure he's wrong about some things, but he doesn't claim to be an archeologist. To solve some problems regarding the archeological record with the scriptural account of things is too difficult at our stage. It may come together in the future but for now you have to look at them as two different disciplines entirely. Each has value but neither one relies on the other. The mysteries will have to remain mysteries for now. What Mr May emphasizes in his research is the importance of the oral histories of the Native Americans. The stories they've passed down through the generations attest to the knowledge that their ancestors fought many wars with a "light skinned" people. These oral histories echo the events in the BOM so convincingly that it leaves little doubt in my mind that the heartland model that he proposes is correct. That being said,we still have to be converted by the Spirit. If I were a blind person none of this research would matter much. So how much of a role does science and archeology play in all this? Were there really giants as the Bible says? Were there elephants in North America during BOM times? Were there horses and chariots? Where do these other creatures fit in like the Neanderthal and Ceo magnon. The most disconcerting thing about these questions is the source of the answer. My teenage daughter dismisses me as being narrow minded because I don't believe man is a product of evolution. She thinks that archeology proves it. The limitations of archeology are many. The further back in history you go the less you can arrive at any conclusions. For instance, when and where was the great flood? Where is the evidence of it? To me, the questions that come out of Genesis can be answered simply. The book is a condensed version of a greater work yet to be revealed. It tells man that intelligence was behind the design of the Earth. It tells us there is a great purpose behind our existence. It immediately deals with the opposing forces of good and evil. When it comes to things like the ecosystem we of giants the archaeology isn't there. But there are some historacal accounts as well as old newspaper articles that bare witness to the fact that early settlers were digging up some very large skeletons. If we believe in the restoration then we believe in modern day prophets. If we believe in modern day prophets then we can be sure that our testimonies don't rest on empirical evidence. I get no comfort from the idea that man might have evolved. I do get comfort knowing that even though I'm small and insignificant I am of great worth to my creator. I see much value in that.