New Agnostism, Old Questions

I was listening to an agnostic author who also was a federal prosecutor for several high profile murder cases today discuss his new book which attacks the Bible, and Christianity and claims that God is unknowable. I am not going to give the authors name or book name because, I don't feel like advertising. And, nothing of what he is saying is any different than the old tired arguments of atheists; try as he might to distance himself from them.

Theists believe in God, Atheists do not. Agnostics say they don't know. However, a newer flavor of agnosticism affirms that you can't know. While average agnostics innocently claim they don't know, these new agnostics say that logic proves that God is unknowable. Agnostics usually argue from a position of moral high ground they call intellectual honesty. Except, then they go on to claim that they know God is unknowable. How can you say anything about what God is or isn't (in this case unknowable), at the same time you claiming you don't know. In my mind, reason suggests that only a truly intellectually honest agnostic would say, I don't know if God exists, and I don't know if it is possible to know if God exists since I don't know anything about God.

After trying to distance himself from Atheists, this author goes on to use the same old atheistic arguments. All of his attacks on God go back to one main issue, "The Problem of Evil." This new agnostic attacks free will by latching onto Calvinism and quotes from Martin Luther and scriptures in the Old Testament and New Testament that have been translated to suggest to some that God made man do evil or good and the idea of Predestination. But this argument assumes that 1. Calvin and Luther's quotes reflect true Christianity. 2. The Bible verse being cited was translated correctly and is being interpreted correctly.

The real attack on God using the "Problem of Evil" attacks God's goodness and all-powerfulness. He claims, that because bad things happen, God can't be all good or all-powerful. He wraps prayer into it saying that God must have not answered the Jews prayers when they were asking for deliverance during the holocaust.

When the interviewer bore witness that He felt he had felt and experienced God in his life, and that God had answered many prayers, the agnostic writer said that he didn't deny that there wasn't some supernatural force at work in the universe, but that supernatural experiences alone were not necessarily a proof for God suggesting some other force could be at work. But then again, he fails to discuss the issue, of first cause, and what created the force at work that is affecting and manifesting itself in your life.

When it comes to the problem of evil, free will, and God's infinite power and goodness; here is the key issue. Only LDS Doctrine can satisfactorily answer this question. That is, if God created our spirits out of nothing, then he created some of us good and some of us bad and then let us loose on each other. If ex-nihlo creation were true, then I would say that #1 some creation were defective therefore God was not all-powerful to create them good in the first place, #2 God knowingly gave evil spirits agency and is an accomplice to evil. or #3 God doesn't know what would happen.

However, according to LDS Doctrine, and Justin Martyr, and the Bible, spirits are eternal and were not created ex nihlo. Spirits and intelligence has always existed and is what it is. It is good or bad inherently. We are here in this life to interact and discover which kind we are, and what we are made of so-to-speak. Only by coming into contact with our opposite, do we comprehend what we are. The Bible says, "Without God, was not anything made, that was made". Which suggests that not everything required making. If it did, God made it. If it was co-eternal like spirit is, then it has existed eternally with Him and didn't require being brought into existence; just being formed and refined. Justin Martyr to Trypho says that God did not make the angels. God said he was I AM THAT I AM, or in other words "The Self-Existent of self-existent." We are all spirit children of God and share His ontology.

Furthermore, the creation story in Genesis does not discuss the creation of the angels. Later in the NT God is called the Father of Spirits. But this does not suggest ex-nihlo. So, the essence of Lucifer (his will) always existed and he was given every opportunity and honor to do good and choose good in the Pre-mortal realm, but used His free will to rebel. God does allow evil to operate, using them for his higher purpose. But this doesn't mean that evil people won't receive punishment for their evil. They will receive the wages of sin that are promised.

Many say God gave us free will. Will is the essence of existence and our eternal nature. But will is not necessarily free to choose or act. So, It is okay to say God gave us free will (freed our will), or agency, but, it is false to say God gave us our will. That would mean God created our essence from nothing and that he brought us into existence and not just bringing our spirits into being which is what the NT suggests again and again in the original Greek.

That said, there is one more important point here. Death and dying is bad and usually painful. Life is good. But we all came to Earth knowing that we would die and that we would be subject to pain and suffering in this life. So we all came to Earth with our eyes open and knowing that Satan was here. We even accepted the veil over our memories. So, we all had proper prior disclosure and informed consent. But in addition, we are promised that Christ's atonement reverses all death and separation from God, and covers all pain. God promises that all our loses will be made up to us. There is no wound he cannot heal. Then we are left to stand before God and be judged based upon our own works based on the knowledge and understanding we had. So, the plan is perfectly legal and just; even for a high-profile federal prosecutor.

Have ye inquired of the Lord?

2 Tim. 3: 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Paul foretold that in the Last Days men's hearts would wax cold, and that they would be ever learning, but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. In modern western culture, we pride ourselves on our great institutions of learning and in the way we educate and become educated. But, according to Paul in the Bible, Paul didn't have such laudatory praise for our modern learning. That said, Paul doesn't give more detail about what it is about our modern learning that fails.

That is when the Christian can turn to the Book of Mormon for some further clarification and explanation of how God would have us learn and teach. 1 Nephi 15 describes the occasion after Nephi is shown a vision of God similar to that shown to his Father. In addition to the profound prophecy in the vision which foretells the coming of the Messiah, the account is instructive afterwards in how Nephi describes his interaction with his brothers.

After Lehi had shared the vision with his family, several sons, namely Laman and Lemuel, began arguing and debating among themselves about what the vision could mean. Nephi on the other hand took an entirely different approach.

1 Ne. 15: 1 And it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had been carried away in the spirit, and seen all these things, I returned to the tent of my father. 2 And it came to pass that I beheld my brethren, and they were disputing one with another concerning the things which my father had spoken unto them.. . . 8 And I said unto them: Have ye inquired of the Lord?. . . 11 Do ye not remember the things which the Lord hath said?—If ye will not harden your hearts, and ask me in bfaith, believing that ye shall receive, with diligence in keeping my commandments, surely these things shall be made known unto you.

Today, world problems are disputed over and debated ad nauseum without arrival at substantive solutions presented or conclusions made. It seems every opinion is presented on equal grounds and no tools are given to weigh the value of each option. But, according to Nephi, the endless debating and disputinig is one main way by which we today are ever learning but never quite able to arrive at the truth. According to Nephi, we as a society need to turn the the Lord Jesus Christ in prayer for answers.

The Evidence of My Faith

Some people confuse faith with hope and hope with speculation. But the scriptures tell us the true meaning of faith. According to the Bible, "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Therefore, hope is the assurance, but faith is the substance of that assurance. A song I learned growing up equated faith with "knowing the sun would rise, brightening each new day." Equating religious faith with the reality of the sun rising each morning is a fascinating comparison. In the same way there is proof of the earth in its regular orbit around the sun, there is evidence that God's word is faithful and true. The difference between each type of evidence, is that the sun can be measured with scientific instruments and described with equations. God's word can be experimented upon, but it is measured by living it and personal and collective experience. But, just as I set my alarm clock the night before counting on the sun rising the next morning, I can arrange my life around the commandments and promised blessings of God.

John 7: 17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

[Lec 1:24a] Faith then, is the first great governing principle which has power, dominion, and authority over all things; by it they exist, by it they are upheld, by it they are changed, or by it they remain, agreeable to the will of God.

Alma 34:4 Yea, even that ye would have so much faith as even to plant the word in your hearts, that ye may try the experiment of its goodness.

Some Evangelical Christians have charged that because there is no archaeological and scientific evidence that the Nephites described in the Book of Mormon existed, that I exercise faith in a vain hope. However, I don't believe in God because I scientifically measured Him. I do not believe that Jesus Christ came back from the dead and ascended to heaven because some archaeologist found ancient video tape of the events. Therefore, I don't base my belief in the Book of Mormon based on what archeologist's have yet to find.

First off, it is impossible to scientifically prove or disprove the existence of God. To do either would require that the person be God. Accordingly, I believe in God not because I can scientifically measure Him, but because He has revealed Himself to me. In the same way, I believe in Christ, and in Joseph Smith, and in the Bible and Book of Mormon because God has revealed in the same way that these things are true and of Him.

While emotions are subjective by definition, I also have objective evidence of my faith? I believe in the LDS faith because the Bible says that the New and Everlasting Covenant carries the promise of a more perfect sanctification as well as future salvation. Therefore, this more perfect sanctification which is a more complete mastery over the appetites of the flesh, becomes a testable proof of God and His word. I have experimented upon God's word and the LDS faith and I have found that it has proved to produce the promised increase in sanctification and self control. behavior is measurable and objective. Therefore, by objective as well as subjective evidence, I have hope in a future salvation as well.

Subjectively, my evidence of God and the LDS religion is based on the fruit that the LDS gospel produces in my life. This is something that Satan cannot duplicate or falsify. "The fruit of the spirit is love, peace, joy, happiness, temperance, patience, father; against such there is no law" Objectively, the LDS doctrine focused on sanctification in Christ inspires and encourages and empowers men to bridle their appetites and master their flesh. Remember, the higher covenant is all about sanctification. If you do not understand what the word of Christ means when Christ said "If thou wilt be perfect" and what Heb says about the NT vs the OT having power to make us perfect then you have missed the whole meaning and purpose of the NT and the atonement of Christ who came to save us from our sins.

The LDS gospel helps me and others around me be better. I see that the people I associate with who keep their covenants, can be depend on, can be trusted, and they exemplify better mastery of their flesh and appetites and this is what Zion is all about. Zion is the "pure in heart"

I respect many Christians who have confessed and forsaken serious sins through Christ. LDS don't deny this but carry the promise to the next level. LDS teach a message of eternal progression and encourage our members to never stand still, because when it comes to spirituality, if you are not progressing your are backsliding. The Scriptures promise that after coming to Christ, Christ will bring us to the Father through a more perfect Sanctification. Therefore, the message of the New Covenant and the LDS gospel is sanctification and striving through Christ to be better as Pres Hinkley said "try a little harder to be a little better"

I am careful not to confuse peace with prosperity. God said he would cause it to rain on the just and the unjust. Therefore, temporal prosperity is not necessarily a sign of God's favor. But the Bible and the Book of Mormon do clearly state that what does differentiate the righteous in Christ with the wicked is peace and happiness. Isaiah said, "There is no peace, saith the Lord, unto the wicked." Alma in the Book of Mormon taught his son, "Wickedness never was happiness." Therefore, the fruit of my faith is not only prosperity but primarily peace, temperance, patience and a more perfect sanctification "against such there is no law."

Some Evangelicals vilify LDS doctrine because it is focused on trying to inspire people to be better? Why call good evil and evil good? Why say, "LDS are trying to be better and focus on sanctification because they think they are better than everyone else? Or, LDS focus on being better is because they think they can save themselves?" The simple truth is that the higher covenant of the NT is about being empowered by Christ to enjoy a greater more perfect sanctification. Therefore, the evidence of my faith in the LDS religion is the fruit of better self-mastery over the appetites of the flesh that I have experienced as a member of this church. The evidence of my faith in Christ is that His atonement is not just mercy to save me in my sins, but also power to help me overcome, escape, and forsake them. I have witnessed this power, and have witnessed this power in the lives of others.

A Few Thoughts on Atheism

I was watching a documentary on NetFlix the other day entitled "The Atheism Tapes." The documentary involved a series of interviews with famous intellectual atheists who were asked to comment on their objections to religion. There are several interesting atheist arguments. Here are a few thoughts I had as I watched this BBC documentary from my LDS perspective.

1. Christianity like all religion drives people to kill
A. A small minority of Christians inappropriately used religion as a justification to kill. However, if you look at the Israel/Palestinian conflict, the fight is not over religion, but land and power. No one on either side is forcing the other to deny their God or die. Also, according to Edward Peter's Inquisition, the Spanish Inquisition (state controlled), held 49,000 trials between 1560-1700 and executed between 3 and 5,000 people. On the other side atheists, secular, utilitarian regimes lead by Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot, French Revolution, Adolf Hitler, etc have killed in the tens of millions.

2. The idea of God is oppressive. We are not atheist but antithesis.
A. Commandments are directions and not restrictions. God empowers, and doesn't restrict believers. There are many more successful and creative believers than non-believers. Many evangelicals don't like the LDS religion because they think having an organized LDS church with a structured hierarchy is oppressive. Science has proven that religious people are on average happier, healthier, and give more to charity than the non-religious.

American Democracy is based on self-government based on the Judeo-Christian principle of the "golden rule." Limited government cannot be expected to make rules about every little thing. Therefore, people are expected to govern their own lives based on the principle of "doing unto others as we would have others do unto us" and the belief that all mankind will stand before God in the next life and stand accountable on how we lived with respect to this divine and self-evident and natural law.

3. God cannot exist because of the problem of evil and bad stuff happening to good people.
A. LDS understand that the spirit of Lucifer always existed, so that God is neither responsible for making a defective creation, nor is He responsible for being an accomplice to evil by giving a murderer (Lucifer) a gun (agency). Evangelical claim God created Satan from nothing, and had perfect foreknowledge of Satan's evil intentions and claim God isn't responsible for letting Satan loose on the universe or that evil and sin is necessary. Only the LDS understanding of the eternal nature of the spirit addresses this argument.

There is another issue with the so-called "problem of suffering." When an atheist tries to argue that there cannot be a God because such-and-such bad thing happened to so-and-so, they usually don't tell you about how the person who was experiencing the pain, trial, or adversity felt about it. I have experienced many people of faith meet adversity, pain, and death with very little suffering. Instead, I have witnessed children and adults face great adversity with faith, courage and hope. Atheist object that religion is the opioid of the masses or a crutch, the Bible teaches that faith in God is balm that has the power to sooth a troubled heart.

4. A good atheist only believes what he can see.
A. Atheist claim this universe and the fact that it is calibrated from life is just a manifestation of luck. This universe is just one of a gazillion other universes not calibrated for life. "Other Universes?" When has anyone seen another universe? For an empiricist, all this talk about other universes sounds like voo-doo to me. LDS are taught that the only way to know God is to have a personal experience with God and allow God to reveal himself to them. There is no way to intellectually prove or disprove God. Therefore, LDS believe in God not because we can prove God, but because God has proved Himself to us.

Trinity: Logical Proof or Contradiction

Some of my Evangelical Christian friends have tried to use the following argument to support their belief that God the Father is only a spiritual reality and has not physicality or physical reality. They used the following New Testament scriptures as a kind of logical expression that they solved to say that God the Father was spirit only in favor of the Trinity doctrine put forth in the Nicene Creed. Here are the three scriptures:

1. John 4: 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
2. Luke 24: 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
3. John 10: 30 I and my Father are one.

Using these three scriptures, I asked my wife's cousin who is currently working on a PhD in Methematical Logic if he could express these statements as logical mathematical arguments, and what would be the result? He responded with the following in an email.

Your scripture/logic question is interesting. Here is how I would formalize the argument, and the result is a contradiction.

Definitions:
Sx: x is a spirit
Bx: x is/has a body
g: God
j: Jesus

Logical symbols:
^: conjunction (AND)
~: negation (NOT)
->: implication (IF/THEN)
<->: iff (IF-AND-ONLY-IF)(x)(p(x)): for all x, p is true of x (where p is some logical formula);the overall formula is said to be universally quantified
=: equality

Premises:
John 4:24 (ignoring the part about worshiping God in spirit and truth): Sg
Luke 24:39: Bj^[(x)(Sx -> ~Bx)]
John 10:30: g = j

The most natural deduction (to me, anyway) is the following:
1. Sg Given
2. Bj^[(x)(Sx -> ~Bx)] Given
3. g = j Given
4. (x)(y)(x=y <-> [(F)(Fx <-> Fy)])

Leibniz's law:
Any x and y are equal/identical iff for every property F, F holds of x iff F holds of y (i.e., equality means having all identical properties)

5. g=j <-> [(F)(Fg <-> Fj)] from 4 by axiom for universal specialization
6. (F)(Fg <-> Fj) from 3 and 5 by Modus Ponens
7. Sg <-> Sj from 6 by axiom for universal specialization
8. Sj from 1 and 7 by Modus Ponens
9. (x)(Sx -> ~Bx) from 2 by axiom for eliminating conjunction
10. Sj -> ~Bj from 9 by axiom for universal specialization
11. ~Bj from 8 and 10 by Modus Ponens
12. Bj from 2 by axiom for eliminating conjunction
13. ~Bj^Bj (a contradiction) from 11 and 12 by axiom for introducing conjunction.

Most logicians, including me, prefer to avoid contradictions (though there is a branch of logic that studies "paraconsistent" systems), so I would disagree if your friend claims that these verses, taken together,constitute an obvious, meaningful argument. I think that when logic breaks down in the real world, it is usually because there are some hidden axiomsa nd subtleties of definition. Probably both you and your friend would be reluctant to say that one or more of these verses is false, so resolution of the contradiction hinges on the interpretation of key phrases. The verse from Luke seems entirely straightforward, so in a Bill Clinton-esque way the matter depends on what "is" (or "are") means. Again, "God is a Spirit" seems straight forward (even if we don't know exactly what a spirit is, from Luke we know that it doesn't have flesh and bones), so I would conclude that "I and my Father are one" does not mean equality in the sense of Leibniz. Whether that is consistent with the doctrine of the Trinity would be something your friend would have to (try to) answer.

Take care, William

I also had a mathematical and logic computer science professional try the same experiment letting him interpret and convert the 3 verses into logical arguments in computer language and he came up with the same result.

What can we conclude from this exercise? The point here is that it is not logical for logical Evangelicals to use these 3 verses of scripture as logical arguments to somehow prove the doctrine of the Trinity and that God the Father is only a spiritual reality and only a spirit.

The truth is that the nature of God is the unification and harmonization of both the spiritual and physical and that God is both a spiritual and physical reality. This may seem trivial, but it happens to be the number one misunderstanding concerning the nature of God and leads many Christians to infer and interpret other scriptural truths as only spiritual realities. Many Evangelicals extrapolate this misunderstanding and apply it to their understanding of the Church not being an organization or hierarchy but only a spiritual body of believers. They extrapolate this misunderstanding to believe that their exists a general priesthood of all believers but ignore that there also is order and an actual priesthood authority. Evangelicals see the temple as the body of the believer only, and salvation is by grace without the need for any type of works, repentance, or ordinances. All these spiritual points are true, and the correct spiritual reality, but they are not correct apart from the associated physical reality. LDS doctrine recognizes both the physical and the spiritual reality of all these truths.

When you consider the historical context of John 4: 24, the verse stresses the spiritual nature of God. That is because the Jews being spoken too had swung the pendulum, with regard to their understanding of the nature of God, too far towards the physical. They knew God spoke to Moses face to face, and they were looking for the Messiah who would come and physically and politically redeem Israel from the oppression of Rome. And the Jews misunderstood the physical and outward requirements of the Law of Moses thinking they resulted in salvation alone. John 4:24 was spoken to remind the Jews that God was also a spirit and those that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth, word and deed, outward ordinances, and inward commitment and devotion. grace and works.

Now Satan has deceived many Christians by getting the pendulum of belief to swing too far to the spiritual side of things to the exclusion of any physical reality to Scripture and Religion. John warned of this in the Bible saying that the spirit of the Anti-Christ would deny that Christ came in the flesh, and that the mouth of the Beast would blaspheme the tabernacle (physicality) of God. This kind of things started with the Gnostic's but is perpetuated thanks to the Nicene and other non-Biblical Creeds that were contentiously debated, politicked, voted upon and ratified by slim majorities and split decisions resulting in later schizms and not a promised unity of the faith. Unfortunately, voting on doctrine doesn't make that doctrine true and voting does not represent the pattern God has set forth to reveal truth to man.

I hope that accepting the physical and spiritual nature of God and God the Father will lead all Christians to a proper understanding of the physical and spiritual realities of all doctrine and all truth. While my Evangelical friends were trying to use these 3 verses to make a logical argument to say that the Father is spirit only. Another scripture, Matt. 5: 48 says:

Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Therefore, with this understanding I would reject a recent statement by Ravi Zarcharias that only the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost together constitute the perfect expression of deity. Matt 5 says that God is perfect and complete alone. Christ came to perfect man and not the Father.

Also, Justin Martyr to Trypho used the creation story in Genesis which says: "Let us make man in our image" and "Now man has become as one of us" to disprove the "Royal We" argument and to prove that the Father and the Son are seperate, distinct, rational and intelligent individuals, persons, personages, and beings present. Even Pastor Ken Clause on the Luthern Hour radio program recently taught that the Father and the Son were separate and distinct "individuals".Therefore the word "homoousios" in the Nicene Creed saying that God the Father and the Son Jesus Christ are "One Substance." is incorrect and Stephen in the New Testament and Joseph Smith really did see God the Son standing on the right hand of God the Father.

Denying the Body of Christ

In Daniel 7, Daniel is shown 4 beasts or earthly kingdoms. Daniel is told the first kingdom represents Babylon, the second represents Persia, and the 3rd with 4 heads represents Greece. [Greece has 4 heads because the kingdom was divided into 4 after the death of Alexander the Great]. The 4th Kingdom was said to have been as big and terrible as all the other 3 kingdoms combined and it had 10 horns and a little horn. This greatest of kingdoms is the Roman Empire. The 10 horns are 10 emperors to Vespasian. The little horn is Vespasian's son General Titus who was responsible for destroying the temple at Jerusalem, crucifying thousands of Jews on the walls of Jerusalem, and fed Christians to the lions at the Roman Colosseum.

Daniel was told that this great 4th Beast or the Roman Empire would persecute the saints, make war with them, overcome them, prevail against them, and kill them. Daniel is also told in Dan 7 that the kingdom would "seek to change the times and the laws." We see the fulfillment of this attempt to change the doctrines and laws of Christ's gospel with the creation of the Roman Catholic Church and its many creeds.

John in Revelation is also shown this same prophetic vision. John describes the same Beast or kingdom but describes his beast with 7 heads and 10 horns and a little horn. When we remember that Daniel said the 4th Beast was a terrible as all the previous 3 Beasts, we realize that if we add up all the heads of all the Beasts, we get 7 heads. So, it is clear that the 4th Beast of Daniel and the Beast of John the Revalator are the same. Again, John tells us that this Beast would be given power to persecute, overcome, and prevail against the Saints of God.

Rev. 11: 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Rev. 13: 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Next John in Revelations tells us that the Beast is given a mouth to blaspheme God. This mouth is the "antichrist." Many Evangelicals are looking for a particular person to fulfill this role. Whether this prophecy is fulfilled by a particular person in the future, I cannot say. We will just have to wait and see on that. But what we do know from the Bible is that scripture has multiple fulfillment and John clearly says the spirit and doctrine of the antichrist was already in the world and in the church. What is the doctrine of the antichrist? John describes it for us.

1 Jn. 4: 3 (2 Jn. 1: 7) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

John comments that the doctrine of the antichrist would have to do with denying that Jesus Christ physically resurrected and redeemed His physical body. The Gnostics and other heresies of the day rejected that Jesus Christ was actually physically resurrected. Now, I don't know any self-proclaimed Christian today who denies the physical resurrection of Christ. So, why then would John the Revelator bother warning us about the doctrine of the antichrist if it wasn't to be an issue?

Well, the issue begs the question; why did the Gnostics not accept the physical resurrection of Christ? The reason was, that for the Gnostics spirit was all good and the body and anything material was all bad. Therefore, they rejected the idea that Christ retook His physical form because in there mind, if Christ had redeemed His physical body, that meant that physicality was not inherrantly evil. And that would mean that if physicality was not all bad and could be sanctified, then God the Father, who encompasses all that is good, must also have an aspect of glorified physicality and personify the perfect unification of the spirit and the physical.

So, while no one today denies the physical resurrection of Christ, We have many Christians who are led to deny the physicality of God the Father. And not only this, but many Christians today who are are errently taught that God the Father is all Spirit and has no physicality, apply this paradigm to their misunderstanding of other doctrines. This rejection of the physical leads many to also deny any physicality to Christs church, Christ's temple, Chrsit's priesthood, and Christ's ordinances.

Rev. 13: 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Here we have John specifically explaining the doctrine of the antichrist or the mouth of the Beast. John says that the mouth would blaspheme against God the Father, and His name which refers to Jesus Christ who is called The Name or The Word. But then John goes on to explain that the doctrine of the antichrist would also blaspheme God's tabernacle. God's tabernacle is Christ's body. And we know that Christ equated several things as His body including His temple (kill this body and I will raise it up again) and also the organization of His church.

Many Evangelicals think of the Old Testament as 100% physical and the New Testament as 100% spiritual. They look at the Temple of God along with many other aspects of Christianity as only spiritual realities. For instance, Evangelicals look at the Church and Kingdom of God not with any Earthly organization, but only as a "body of believers" and they interpret baptism as only needing to be spiritually born again while denying the need for the actual physical act of being submerged in water in the name of Christ. The same goes for the priesthood. To an Evangelical, there is no actual authority of God given to man. Instead, there is only a "priesthood of all believers."

On the other hand, the truth of God and the Bible is not to teach that physical is all bad and spirit is all good, but that God is the perfect unification of the physical and the spiritual. It is LDS doctrine that God and all truth has both tangible physical as well as spiritual realities. Therefore, God's temple is both a sacred structure that God commands His people to build in His name, as well as representing our individual souls. Similarly, The LDS Church believes that Christ's church is both physical and spiritual reality manifest by both a body of believers but also a church organization with prophets, apostles, bishops, teachers etc. And LDS believe that a man can only enter into the kingdom of God if he is reborn of both the water and the spirit. This means that in addition to being spiritually born of God, a man must also receive the ordinance of water baptism by one who holds the proper God-given priesthood authority to administer this ordinance. Additionally, LDS believe that a man can only truely worship God if he does so in spirit and in truth, or in other words, in word and in deed.

John gives us another warning about the Beast in Revelation. John tells us that that Beast would make an image or images of itself. That is, the Beast would make many copies of itself. And then John warned us that all those who were guilty of worshiping the Beast, worshiping its copies, or receiving its mark, would be in danger of damnation. Today we see many offshoots of the Roman Catholic Church with the many Christian denominations and non-denominations. But all these heads are sill branches off the same corrupt tree and have their doctrines based upon the the doctrines of men mingled with scripture and not based upon direct revelation and the priesthood authority of God.

Rev. 19: 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of efire burning with brimstone.

Rev. 20: 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

We are in the Last Days, some of these prophecies have yet to be fulfilled, but many prophecies have multiple fulfillment in the scriptures. God said many people would be deceived. Can you tell yourself that you are not blaspheming the body of Christ, and worshiping the Beast, its image, or have received its mark?

Understanding the heresy of the antichrist not only helps us understand the nature of God, it also helps us know how to approach all truth. Unfortunately, some Evangelicals falsely claiming that the LDS testimony is based solely on feeling only and that we deny reason and logic. However, our scriptures prove that this is not true and demonstrate instead that truth is manifest and revealed by God by a unification of purified reason and feeling through the sanctified heart and mind. Accordingly, LDS rely on the unification of reason and feeling, body and spirit, heart and mind, grace and works just as the New Testament teaches. LDS do not base truth on feeling or reason alone. Instead, the LDS witness and testimony of truth is based on a harmonizing of both body and spirit, reason and feeling, grace and works through the power of the Holy Ghost.

D&C 8:2 Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.
D&C 68: 1 My servant, Orson Hyde, was called by his ordination to proclaim the everlasting gospel, by the Spirit of the living God, from people to people, and from land to land, in the congregations of the wicked, in their synagogues, reasoning with and expounding all scriptures unto them.
D&C 133: 57 And for this cause, that men might be made partakers of the glories which were to be revealed, the Lord sent forth the fulness of his gospel, his everlasting covenant, reasoning in plainness and simplicity—

Free Will, Quantum Mechanics and Predestination

John Conway and Simon Kochen recently wrote a paper with a mathematical proof showing that particles exhibiting quantum mechanical behavior can be shown to demonstrate free will. John John Conway gave a lecture at Princeton University explaining the significance of their theorem and proof. The basic assertion of the paper is that if we have free will, then all particles must have some level of free will as well.

The idea of quantum mechanics as a proof for free will is not new with Conway and Kochen. This idea has been debated as a product of quantum mechanics since these theories were first discovered. I remember Cleon Skousen talking about this in a controversial talk on the atonement where he mentions quantum mechanics and free will but falsely concludes that God has to appease the intelligences. Nevertheless, this new proof of free will has profound theological and philosophical implications.

"Now if you’re interested in science, this will be very exciting information. Our most advanced research scientists in the pure research area have just proven this to be true. Matter does not function mechanically. It has an element of finite intelligence in it, they say. That’s what Bergsen called it–the French philosopher. It can distinguish, it can choose, it doesn’t always do what the rules say. Some of these little elements are just as ornery as you and me. They go wandering around–and in the aggregate we say that that’s the law of chemistry. In the aggregate, yes, but you look at them individually and they’re fooling around. As a matter of fact, Robert Milligan said that if all the elements were obeying all of the rules of chemistry, you would never die. Through rebellion in the flesh. And they’re called seeds of death–you may have heard of that before. Now at God’s command, element which has received intelligence attached to it, at God’s command it will obey."

Now, what do I think? In a nutshell, this theorem seems to be an explanation of randomness and seems to be attempting, in a way, to explain how God plays dice with the Universe despite Einstein's objections. I think it would be interesting to have a theological conversation with Dr. Conway with respect to his theorem. Free Will is an important concept to LDS. Skousen in his talk states that quantum mechanics suggests that matter is not forced to obey the classical laws of physics and therefore is free to act contrary to it.

The consequences of disobedience results in the universe as we experience it. In fact, this disobedience is counted on and serves God's higher purposes. It seems to go along with Romans 9 where Paul is discussing Foreordination and says that even the wicked Pharaoh ends up serving God's higher purposes. And in the same way, quantum mechanics also serves God's higher purposes. Satan tempting Adam and Eve in the garden to eat the fruit served God's higher purposes. But it is interesting to think about what a universe would be like that was completely obedient to God's laws. We talk about the ideal gas law. What if all matter and people behaved ideally? That would be heaven.

Rom 9: 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

I do wonder what Dr. Conway's religious and philosophical beliefs are. I am not sure he is really trying to make a religious statement other than saying people who believe in instantaneous communication by ESP are kooky. However, I believe that mankind do exhibit freewill. That is why social science is so unpredictable. And this freewill is an inherent aspect of our person and being. And, despite what Evangelicals say, it is this free will that is the only thing that we can possibly contribute and must contribute to our salvation. Calvinists would disagree and say that only Christ is free and that God's decision of who He predestines to salvation and who he predestines to damnation is random. God is not random. Rather, God is constant, unchangeable, and dependable like the speed of light in any reference frame. John in Revelations taught that Christ has come down and knocked on each one of our doors, and it is up to us to decide whether to open up to Him or not. Conversely, it is man who brings the randomness, arbitrariness and disobedience into the universe. God already knows our spin state from the first. He knows whether we love Him or not. But He allows us to prove ourselves to ourselves, so that we learn who we are and what we are made of.

Rev. 3: 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

I try to be cautious when it comes to debates where both sides argue to the exclusion of the other. So, when it comes to the free will vs. determinism debate, I would tend to believe that there is no dichotomy and both exist and co-exist. And I think that this paper finds that both free will and determanism can co-exist.

My other blog on this subject at brainbender.blogspot.com: http://brainbender.blogspot.com/2009/04/free-will-and-quantum-mechanics.html

Head vs. Heart

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints claim to have received revelation from God by the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is God's word like the Bible, that God calls prophets today, and that the LDS church is the only 100% true church on the Earth. Instead of respectfully disagreeing with us, some Evangelical Christians claim that the Bible does not teach or endorse the LDS testimony. Many Evangelical Christians claim that the Holy Ghost does not operated through the mechanism of what they consider subjective feelings but pure logic only. Therefore, it seems as though they believe that God operates though the mind over the heart. However, as I look through the Bible, I see something different taught. According to the Bible, there is no dichotomy. God who created the mind and the heart of man, can change, purify and operate through both.

Again, many Evangelical Christians reject the LDS testimony because: #1 it does not conform to their faith tradition which is the basis for their interpretation of the Bible. #2 they deny any bias in their Bible interpretation and understanding #3 they claim that the true understanding of the Bible is 100% self-evident based on pure logic alone #4 they claim that God's Spirit works through the operation of logic and the mind over any feelings of the heart.#5 they claim that much evil is done by those who claim to have been following their heart.

Now that we have stated our assumptions, lets see if the Bible supports them. Starting out, it seems the Evangelical basis for concluding that the heart of man is evil comes from the teaching of Jesus Christ. Christ says in Matthew, "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts."

Matt. 15: 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

However, later Jesus Christ teaches that we should love God with all our heart and mind. And you cannot love God with your heart if your heart is evil. So, God must transform and sanctify the heart as well as the mind of man.

Mark 12: 30 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. (Heb. 8: 10, 1 Chr. 28: 9, Ps. 119: 2 2)

In fact, the mind has the same propensity to be corrupt as the heart, and hands do:

James 4: 8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

But God promises that through the atonement of Christ and the transformative power of the Holy Ghost, that God will make us new creatures in Christ and give us a new mind and a new heart.

Ezek. 36: 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Rom. 5: 5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

In fact there are some scriptures which say that the feelings of the heart can surpass logic. Isn't peace, love, faith, and a good or clear conscience something that is felt?

Philip. 4: 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

1 Tim. 1: 5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

In fact the Bible talks about the feelings of the heart and feeling after God, being "past feeling," and that Christ Himself felt our infirmities.

Acts 17: 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Eph. 4: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

Heb. 4: 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Those that don't know of follow God are oft times referred to as being hard or blind in their hearts. But you don't see with your heart, but feel suggests that God does work through the feelings of the heart. In fact, in many places in the Bible, it speaks of understanding with the heart suggesting again that heart may in certain situations be superior to logic.

John 12: 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Matt. 13: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Eph. 4: 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Jesus Christ is also described as feeling great compassion and love as a motivating force for His many good works. If Jesus Christ felt compassion for the sick and the needy, shouldn't his followers feel compassion too. Isn't justice a principle of logic, while compassion inspires mercy?

Matt. 14: 14 And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.
Matt. 20: 34 So Jesus had compassion on them, and touched their eyes: and immediately their eyes received bsight, and they followed him.
Mark 1: 41 And Jesus, moved with compassion, put forth his hand, and touched him, and saith unto him, I will; be thou clean.

The Bible commands that the true followers of Christ exhibit Christ-like compassion for one another. And when it comes to the mind and logic, the Bible calls for unity and oneness of mind. Additionally, the phrase "bowels of mercy" or "my bowels are filled with mercy" illustrates the extent of the purifying power of the Holy Ghost comparing bowel urges to God's mercy.

1 Pet. 3: 8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

1 Jn. 3: 17 But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
Philip. 2: 1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

Col. 3: 12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

The truth is that the Holy Ghost purifies the head, heart, hands, and the entire being. The operation of Holy Ghost is likened in scripture to "the still small voice" in the mind and the "burning in the bosom" in the heart. Yes, there are many people who claim to do evil in the name of religion and because they were following their emotion. There are also many people who do evil and deny God in the name of logic and science. It is one of the most important skills one can develop to differentiate the peaceful feelings of the Spirit and of the conscience from the lustful desires, adrenaline rushes, and appetites of the flesh, the neuroticisms, doubt and paranoia of the mind, as well as the temptations of Satan.

How can peaceful feelings of the heart be evil? Are all the good stories we were taught as a child wrong; where the hero follows his gut instinct, his heart, or his conscience to do the right thing, even when logic told him to do otherwise? Would the quintessential Evangelical be a Vulcan from Star Trek who claims he can suppress emotion in favor of pure logic?

It has always puzzled me how an Evangelical can claim that proper belief and spiritual understanding is 100% logic based. How can this be? What is logical about the Red Sea parting, or people surviving being thrown into a fiery furnace, a virgin getting pregnant, and someone coming back from the dead after 3 days? These events surpass all logic and understanding. But I believe them because I feel that they are true in my heart, and that knowledge based on faith and the righteous feelings of the Holy Ghost has brought me great peace, comfort, happiness, and inspired direction.

Where does your doctrine lead?

In my conversations with Evangelical Christians I have come across 3 disturbing beliefs that are a result of the mixing of apostate thinking with pure doctrine. Remember that correct belief "Orthodoxy" will lead you to correct behavior "Orthopraxis," which will lead you to a correct heart towards God "Orthocardia." A questions we should all ask ourselves is if our belief is leading us closer to or away from God. Additionally, correct belief should also lead us closer to our families and neighbors. Remember the two great commandments to love God and our fellow man? If loving God and our family and neighbors is so important, then the correct doctrines of Christ should increase our love and tolerance towards all mankind in addition to increasing our ability to love God.

#1. Family doesn't matter to God.

In a discussion about the eternal nature and significance of family to God, several of my evangelical friends were attempting to convince me that our immediate temporal family here on Earth was unimportant, temporary, and had no lasting value in the eyes of God.

To the LDS, family is the basic unit of social organization on Earth and in Heaven. Adam and Eve were organized into the first family before The Fall, and existed in that state of innocence and purity in the presence of God with a command to have children. LDS believe that family relationships can endure beyond death and be enjoyed for eternity.

#2. If you are not Christian, you are not my brother.

In a conversation about the pre-existence and eternal nature of the spirit within us, some Evangelical friends of mine were of the opinion that only professing Christians where their brothers and would be saved. This excluded me, because although I profess belief in Jesus Christ as my Savior and Redeemer, they tell me that I don't believe in their version of Jesus which they claim is the correct Jesus.

LDS believe that all mankind are spirit children of our Heavenly Father regardless of color, ethnicity, faith or creed. In fact, if you are Muslim or Hindu or Agnostic and are true and valiant to the truth which God has put in your heart and mind, then you will be both saved and exalted. That is because Christ is truth, and if you believe in truth, you really believe in Christ without knowing you do. God will make allowance for tradition which prevents some from getting the words right when the heart, head, and hands are clean in Christ. The Bible says "where there is no law, there is no sin." Eventually, those who are true and faithful will accept Christ in word to go along with their deeds. And also, the necessary temple work will be done on their behalf to satisfy the technical demands of salvation and exaltation. But, those who are faithful and true to the truth they are given by God will not be denied any blessing.

#3 God does not answer prayer about personal matters.

In a conversation with an Evangelical about personal testimony and revelation, my friend stated:

[there is NOT one passage in Old or New Testament scripture instructing us to inquire of the Lord on what we ought OR ought not to do regarding personal matters!]

[The Bible does NOT model for us a mode of decision-making where we examine our hearts for communication from God telling us what to do.]

And then he sited the Evangelical author Greg Koukl's, “Decision Making and the Will of God:”

[The Bible does NOT teach us to expect subjective internal promptings from the Holy Spirit as any kind of normative guide.]

Other Evangelicals claim that God will inspire with regard to "wisdom" or how to apply the Bible, but not about "knowledge." The only source of spiritual knowledge is the Bible alone. Therefore, they say that you cannot pray about whether something is true or not, but only if you should or shouldn't do something. The Bible teaches that "the Holy Ghost will guide us into all truth;" not just all wisdom. Truth encompasses both knowledge and wisdom. And that is the point of this post is that correct belief leads to correct action, and the Holy Ghost is required together with scripture for both.

LDS, know that Christ says again and again "Ask and ye will receive, knock and it shall be opened unto you." LDS know that God does care about the even the smallest details of our lives. In some instances the answer may be "it mattereth not." But that still is a wonderful answer. If you have been led to believe by your doctrine that God does not care about the intimate details of your life, to not bother praying, or to not expect answers to prayer, maybe your doctrine isn't helping you develop as close of a relationship with God as you think.

Foundation Doctrine and Testimony

There has been considerable debate on the Internet among LDS and our friends of other Christian faiths about what constitutes official LDS Doctrine and what does not. The First Presidency of the LDS Church has released an official statement that reads that not everything a church leader has said on any occasion is necessarily official church doctrine. Instead, some teachings fall under the category of "well-meaning opinion." The criteria for doctrine by the LDS church according to this official statement is that the teaching should be clearly found in LDS scripture, in current LDS Sunday School Manuals, in official First Presidency statements, and/or repeated multiple times by past and present General Authorities of the LDS Church at General Conference and in current church publications such as the Ensign.

Some Christians of other faiths seem to have a difficult time with this statement because the LDS claim its General Authorities are Prophets, Seers, and Revelators like the Apostles and Prophets in the Bible. They tend to expect that these men should be infallible. But the LDS church does not teach a doctrine of infallibility of its leaders. The LDS church teaches that on the whole the Prophet and the majority of the Apostles would never lead the church astray. In other words, not everything said (as we understand it) is necessarily true just because of who these men are. But, if truth is to be revealed by God to man, we know where to look because the Prophets and Apostles of the LDS church hold the keys and authority to receive revelation for the whole church.

That brings up another important issue about the difference between core doctrine and opinion. And that has to do with individual testimony and a personal witness of truth by the Holy Ghost. See, the LDS church does not expect its members to blindly follow our leadership. Every member is expected to pray and ask God if the foundation doctrines of the LDS faith are true and are promised that if we ask with faith that God will reveal the truth of these foundation doctrines to the asker by the Power of the Holy Spirit. In fact, investigators of the LDS church are specifically asked before they are baptized if they have received such a witness and testimony as a prerequisite for baptism. This is done so that the individual member will have an independent witness that the doctrine is true directly from God Himself with no intermediary but Christ. By these means, the individual member develops a personal relationship with Jesus Christ who is our only mediator with the Father. Church leadership assist members with our relationship with Christ and help point us too Christ, but Christ is the only mediator between man and the Father.

So, how does this apply to the conversation with those of other faiths? Some have gone to great effort to scour LDS archives or archival publications such as "Journal of Discourses" and expect LDS to defend any quote they dig up. In some cases, some quotes in older books like "Journal of Discourses" and Orson Pratt's "the Seer" have taken a life of their own. Because some of these quotes are over 100 years old, and have not been commented on by more modern church leaders, it is difficult in many cases to even understand the true meaning and intent of the quote. In fact, many former-LDS I have talked to who question some of these teachings confess that they did not hear these teachings by the missionaries, from LDS scripture, from official LDS Sunday School Manuals, during weekly LDS church services, from current General Authorities of the LDS church in General Conference or in the Ensign (Official monthly LDS publication) or the LDS temple. They routinely say they read it or discovered it on their own.

But there is a more important issue here. And that issue is one of testimony. It is difficult for some to realize that to the LDS, there is a hierarchy of what we know to be true. Others think that everything the LDS church leaders say should exist on the same level. However, LDS believe what we believe because we feel that God Himself has revealed and confirmed to us that certain things are true by the Holy Spirit. What are those things? They are the foundation doctrines of the church such as that God Lives, Jesus is the Christ, the Bible and the Book of Mormon are God's word, that Joseph Smith saw God the Father and Jesus Christ, and that the authority of Christ's church was lost from the Earth and priesthood authority was again restored to Joseph Smith and God continues to call Prophets and Apostles today and continues to reveal His will and word through modern prophets.

Now, it is much easier for LDS to discuss any of these issues because we feel we have a testimony and spiritual witness of them. However, when it comes to other esoteric topics that routinely come up in discussion, it is more difficult because although we might have heard the quotes before, we don't necessarily have a divinely acquired witness and testimony that they are true or that we understand what the original intent of the quote. So, we say that such-and-such a quote in not doctrinal and should be considered a well-intended, well-meaning opinion. What adds to the debate is that often, LDS and non-LDS interpret these quotes differently and both sides lack modern, official commentary on these older quotes by Brigham Young or Orson Pratt, for example.

After assigning a particular quote to the level of "well-meaning opinion," The non-LDS often asks how can we consider so-and-so a prophet or apostle and not accept everything they say as absolute, universal, inviolate, inerrant, infallible truth? The reason is that our testimony and belief in Christ does not come from a faith in these leaders alone. Our testimony in Christ and His gospel comes from a spiritual witness from God through the Holy Spirit through prayer to Our Eternal Father in the name of Jesus Christ. Consequently, there are many topics which individual members have not received a spiritual witness on. We may have a spiritual witness from God that Brigham Young was a prophet so, anything Brigham Young says we will keep in consideration. But until more modern Prophets and Apostles comment on the particular quote in question or I receive a personal witness on a certain topic or about certain specific quote, I really cannot defend them.

I consider such quotes to be well-meaning opinion. In other words, because I believe Brigham Young was a true prophet, I will not outright reject what he said, but without personal revelation, I can neither support or reject the quote. I do try to point out if I think someone, who asks about a quote or teaching, is misinterpreting the quote and I will often give my opinion to help that person understand the context of the teaching. But in many cases, the teaching could be true as we understand it, or it could be inaccurate as we understand it, or maybe we misunderstand what is being said entirely. But the quotes themselves are not going to affect my belief in the LDS faith, because my belief is based on my trust in God alone and my testimony of truth in the core doctrines of the LDS faith which I have received through study, pondering, fasting, prayer, and revelation by God through His Holy Spirit.

There are those which read this and say that while these topics are not core doctrine today, they were the core doctrine then, and the early church members sacrificed to defend them and how could I turn my back on those teachings that the early church members believed in so much they gave their lives for them. Truth is that the core, fundamental doctrines of the church haven't changed.

My wife's has 3/4-th pioneer ancestry, and 1/4-th converted Missouri Mobbocrat ancestry. This ancestry includes surviving members of the Martin and Willie Handcart Company. According to their recorded journals and testimony (which I have and have read), they were converted by the same foundation doctrines that I was. They bore testimony of the same foundation teaching that I do. They were converted based on a spiritual witness that God lives, Jesus is the Christ, the Book of Mormon is God's word, and Joseph Smith saw God and Jesus Christ and was called as a modern-day prophet. I didn't read any testimony by them based on the pet-topics I often hear on the Internet such as blood atonement, or Adam-God. I don't know of anyone who joined the church because of polygamy either. If LDS testimony is conditioned and automatic, then I would expect early LDS members to be testifying of Adam-God right along with everything else if it was such a core doctrine. Fact is, they don't. A good sign that the theory is completely contrived or a grave misunderstanding is that these odd teachings are not taught by other church leadership contemporary with Brigham Young and they are not found in early LDS testimonies.

Again, my evidence against theories like Adam-God and Blood Atonement being core doctrines is that no contemporaries of Brigham Young taught it and no early LDS member mentioned it in their testimony. If LDS testimony is as conditioned and automatic as some claim, then I would expect testimonies back then like "I would like to bare my testimony.... i know the church is true .... I know that Joseph Smith is a prophet ..... I know that the Adam is God .... I know that murderers must confess their sin and have their blood shed on the ground to be saved .... etc."

With regard to polygamy. These ancestors accepted the practice of polygamy only because they had a witness of the other truths of the gospel. The practice was a trial of their faith. And only because of this testimony, did the early Saints accepted that God required polygamy. In the same way, because of my testimony, I accept that God no longer requires that practice.

Formula for Truth: Ponder, Study, Prayer

Many Evanglicals criticize LDS for what they say is "interpreting scripture through the lens of LDS doctrine." Robert L. Millet (Professor of Ancient Scripture BYU) and Gerald R. McDermott (Professor of Religion Roanoke College) both agree that every Christian interprets scripture through the eye of their faith-tradition. The key then is to judge the lens. Is the LDS lens clear or cloudy. Is the LDS faith-tradition inspired or "another gospel."

That said, some Evangelicals insist that their interpretation of scripture is 100% objective and unbiased by tradition or preconceved ideas. These same Evangelicals declare the mantra "Scripture interprets Scripture" to describe their paradigm for proper Bible interpretation. Others go beyond this paradigm and declare that their understanding "begins and ends with the Bible" and is "purely and completely logical." Many Evangelicals criticize LDS for responding to what we call the "feelings of the Holy Ghost." They say we let "emotion cloud our judgement." In this post I will compare and contrast the Evangelical paradigm that "starts and stops with the Bible" with the LDS paradigm for receiving truth.

I don't have a problem with the saying that "scripture interprets scripture." Many passages of scripture are clearly understood in the light of the full Biblical context. However, I beleive that saying "truth starts and stops with the Bible" is not correct. Those Evangelicals who claim that their understanding of truth "begins and ends with the Bible" deny that they approach the Bible with pretext. If that is the case, their truth paradigm could be represented with the following formula.

BIBLE -> MAN's LOGIC -> BIBLE [or] MAN's LOGIC -> BIBLE -> MAN's LOGIC

Now I don't have any problem with steps 1 and 3 other than it's circular nature. But Step 2 leaves God out of of the equation. Because of step 2, a person who lives by this paradigm, can be left with ideas of man mixed with the Bible or as LDS like to say "philosophes of men mingled with scripture." Or if you are intellectually honest and admit pretext, "Garbage in, garbage out."

2 Pet. 2: 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

On the other hand, LDS doctrine involves God in each step. The first step for LDS is righteous desire. A pure seeker of truth will be empowered by the Holy Ghost with a desire to know and question. Without the operation of the Holy Ghost, a man can desire no good thing. This step is also referred to in scripture as "pondering."

After "pondering" and being inspired and empowered by the Holy Ghost to ask certain questions, LDS are instructed to go to the Scriptures for an answer. God tells us in the Doctrine and Covenants that we are to then "study it out in our minds" as well as "feast upon the words of Christ." The scriptures also refer to Step 2 as "searching." Searching the scriptures must also involve the Holy Ghost. Scriptures are to be the understood by the spirit of prophecy which is a testimony of Jesus Christ. Without this, scripture is just words and can be manipulated.

After searching the scriptures for answers, the pure seeker of truth will discover that the Bible does not claim to be the gold standard for truth. Yes, the Bible will furnish us with all good works, but the scriptures point us to the final authority of truth. God is the final authority, to whom we must turn for verification of our answers by prayer. The Bible promises "Ask and recieve, knock and it shall be opened unto you." Also, "If any of you lack wisdom let him ask of God." Therefore, Prayer is the final step to verify what we have learned from scripture. God has promised us that "by the power of the Holy Ghost, [we can] know the truth of all things." The Bible promises that the Holy Ghost will guide us into all truth.

Therefore, the LDS truth paradigm could be represented by the following formula.

Desire/Question/Ponder -> Study/Search/Feast -> Verify/Experiment/Pray

While Evangelicals "start and stop with the Bible," the LDS, begin and end with God who according to the Bible is the gold standard for truth. The LDS paradigm also illustrates the relationship of Pondering, Study, and Prayer and the operation of the Holy Ghost in each step of the process.

Joseph Smith's first vision is a great illustration. The story begins with his concern and ponderings about the eternal salvation of his soul. Such righteous desires could only be inspired by the operation of the Holy Ghost. In response to his desire, Joseph turned to the Bible to search for the answers to the deep questions of his soul. However, to his surprise, the Bible pointed him to prayer. Joseph explained his experience while reading James 1:5 "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God." Joseph recounted, "never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart." Through the operation of the Holy Ghost, Joseph Smith was directed to pray to God. In response to Joseph's humble prayer, God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him in what is called the "First Vision."

Evangelicals like to criticize LDS talk about testimony, spirit, and feelings. Many Evangelicals claim pure logic as taught by the Bible is the road to all truth. However, according to modern science, the LDS paradigm better parallels the Scientific Method. According to science, the Scientific Method is the gold stardard for empirical truth. The Scientific Method can be represented by the following formula.

Scientific Method:
Hypothesis --> Research Background --> Verify by Experimentation

LDS Paradigm:
Desire/Question/Ponder -> Study/Search/Feast -> Verify/Experiment/Pray

From the following equations, the Scientific Method and the LDS Paradigm parallel each other, except that the LDS formula involves God in each step by the operation of the Holy Ghost. Therefore, the LDS paradigm should be considered more logically correct. The LDS paradigm is more spiritually correct because it acknowledges pretext and bias, it involves research, and it employs experimentation and verification by the gold standard which is God.

Moroni's promise also teaches this same principle.

Moro 10:3-4
"if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts."

This pondering and righteous desire can only be done by the operation of the Holy Ghost. An evil spirit would never bring to mind the mercy of God.

"And when ye shall receive these things,"

This is the study of God's word with the Holy Ghost.

"I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost."

God promises that prayer in the name of Christ will be answered by the Holy Ghost. Any by the Holy Ghost we can know the truth of all things.

Meaning of Words

Some claim that the LDS have changed the meaning of many scriptural words. I admit that some of our disagreements with other Christians are due to the different meaning LDS and Orthodox attatch to words. However, LDS do not use words differently to be dishonest. Because of the Apostasy, Satan changed the meaning of many words. With the restoration, LDS are restoring words to their origional scriptural meaning. Here are a few examples.

1. Faith
False Meaning: If I just believe strong enough I can change the mind and will of God.
True Meaning: I will accept and trust the mind and will of God, even if its not what I want.

2. Hope
False Meaning: What you feel when you buy a lottery ticket.
True Meaning: The assurance you feel that you got 100% on your test because you put in the effort (thanks to God) to study and prepare sufficently.

3. Charity
False Meaning: A gift a man gives to the poor.
True Meaning: The true love of Christ that God gives in the heart of one who has faith and a hope in Chirst (best develped by serving the poor).

4. Salvation
False Meaning: Not going to Hell
True Meaning: Being saved from physical death and separation from your body as well as being saved from spiritual death which is a separation from God the Father.

5. Eternal Life and Exaltation
False Meaning: Living with God circling His throne forever.
True Meaning: Knowing God, Living like God, sitting in God's throne with Him, and enjoying eternal progression, learning, and the ability to join with God in His work of creation forever.

6. Damnation
False Meaning: Going to Hell
True Meaning: To stop ones progress or loosing the ability for eternal progression. Therefore, salvation without exaltation = damnation.

7. Worship
False Meaning: Praise God with your mouth
True Meaning: Praise God with your actions (obedience and service)

8. Blasphemy
False Meaning: Elevating the worth of man by claiming that man can be exalted
True Meaning: Denying the power of God to exalt man

9. Pride
False Meaning: Elevating the worth of man by claiming that man can be sanctified and perfected in this world by the Holy Ghost
True Meaning: Rejecting the will of God by denying the Holy Ghost

10. Love of God
False Meaning: Man is worthless and nothing, but God will save us anyways so as to have more worthless creatures circling His throne worshipping Him with our mouths only for eternity.
True Meaning: Man is nothing without God, but with God man has infinite potential. God's greatest desire is to give everything He has to His children who he has promised will sit with Him in his throne, and worship Him by participating in His work of creation abd worshipping Him with our whole bodies for eternity.

Proof, Evidence, and Testimony

Someone asked me if there were clear scientific evidence against my faith and belief how would I respond?

You cannot prove or disprove the existence of God let alone prove or disprove the Bible or the Book of Mormon. You would have to be God to prove to someone that God existed. And you likewise would have to be God to disprove that there was a God. Which creates an interesting paradox.

The only way to have a perfect knowledge of God's existence is to not only see His face, but to become like Him. Because after experiencing God you could always tell yourself that your mind and senses were playing tricks on you. You could only have proof if you actually became perfectly of one mind with God. Then you could say, as I know that I exist, I have a perfect knowledge that God exists, because, I am like Him, I am in Him, and He is in me, and I am one with Him. This is exactly the quality of proof Jesus Christ had of God's existence.

So, since we can't talk about proof and we can't talk about a perfect knowledge, we are forced to talk about evidence. But evidence can be in the eye of the beholder. I look at nature, and the organization of the heaven and the planets, and the beauty of this Earth and I think like Paul, "every house was built by some man, the builder of all things is God." However, some look at the very same date and only see The Big Bang and Darwin's evolution. It's the same data but used by both sides to support their belief.

Man's logic is fallible. We have theories and hypothesis which shift like that shifting sands of the desert and like chaff blown in a whirlwind. In science and medicine, the data we had first seemed to support one theory or treatment, the next day additional data points in the complete opposite direction.

That is why faith and the Holy Spirit is so important. The Holy Ghost will lead us into all truth. And while truth is logical. Not everything man considers logical is truth. Didn't God tell us "my ways are not thy ways, neither are my thoughts they thoughts." So, it is important to learn how to know the mind of God especially when it comes to reading God's word. Because God's word can only be understood by the spirit of prophecy. This is the highest form of knowing.

The spirit of prophecy should be the basis of all Christian testimony, faith, and belief. Didn't Moses teach, "would to God that all men were prophets and God would put His spirit on them." One of the most important thing we can learn as Christians is to recognize the influence of the Comforter which is the spirit of prophecy that Christ has left us. Christ has ascended to heaven and God is now manifest by the Holy Ghost. Will we reject the Holy Ghost like the Jew rejected Jesus?

In the OT, God was represented by prophets, and the people rejected and killed the prophets. Then in the NT, God was represented by the Son of God and His Apostles and the people rejected and killed Jesus Christ and the Apostles. Now, in the Last Days, God is represented by the Holy Ghost. We need to receive the Holy Ghost into our hearts and minds.

So, I would say that once a person has received the Holy Ghost and learned to recognize its influence, if there is data which man interprets to go against the spirit of prophecy, then you have to patiently wait on the Lord and not abandon your faith immediately, because in time additional data and understanding will ultimately turn the evidence in favor of your faith.

Recognizing the Holy Ghost: Providence or Paranoia

I think most people experience and recognize the workings of the Holy Ghost to some extent. Many people talk about having a 6th-sense, or feeling inspired or directed to live a certain way, to do certain things, or work in a particular profession. Many Christians may even feel that God has called them into a particular ministry or service. I think the Bible teaches how imperative it is for all of us to tap into this spiritual communication on a daily and even constant basis. However, with our noisy lives, it sometimes can be difficult to discern the feelings and promptings of the Holy Ghost. The Old Testament describes the voice of the Lord as a still small voice:

1 Kgs. 19: 11-12 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake: And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

After the resurrection of Jesus Christ, two disciples were walking on the path to a village called Emmaus when the resurrected Lord drew near to them and walked with them and explained how the scriptures testified of Christ and then sat with them to break bread. Then the scriptures say their eyes were opened and they recognized the Lord whereupon he vanished. Then as the disciples discussed what they had just experienced and pondered how it was that they hadn't recognized the risen Lord earlier, "they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?" (Luke 24: 32)

It was the operation of the Holy Ghost within them that caused their hearts to burn as the Lord spoke truth and spoke of how the scriptures from Moses to the prophets spoke of Him. But the disciples were slow to immediately recognize the feelings of the Holy Ghost, just as many times it can be difficult for us to feel and recognize the spirit of God immediately. But, anyone who has had a child could attest to the warm glow or "burning" they felt in their hearts when they first held their first newborn child. I can't help but think that God's Spirit would be a part of the joy and peace associated with such a tender moment. Jesus Christ taught the following about purpose and work of the Holy Ghost:

John 15: 26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me.

John 14: 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16: 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:

I have to admit, LDS meetings can appear rather boring and drab to the outside observer. While LDS meetings are warm, peaceful, and reverent; there is no loud music, no shouting, and there are no 1,000 W loud speakers. This is because loudness isn't necessary to invite the Prince of Peace. All that is required is truth. When truth is spoken, truth alone is enough to invite the Lord's presence and for the hearers to feel His peace and His still small voice.

Sometimes certain warning thoughts come to mind and I wonder if I am just being paranoid or if it's the Holy Ghost. Paul taught perfectly how to discern paranoia from providence when he spoke of the fruit of the Spirit:

Gal. 5: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

A close friend of mine told me of an experience he had which illustrates the difference between paranoia and inspiration. While driving down a dark, winding rural highway God prevented him from getting into an accident. As he came over a hill he saw a mental image, in his minds eye, of a deer in the road. He didn't feel anxious about it, or nervous in any way. But as he came over the hill he responded to the prompting and applied the breaks. Just as he came over the hill the image he saw in his mind a few seconds before was there before him; the look of the trees, the roadway, and the deer. Had he not been breaking he would have hit the deer or wrecked trying to avoid it.

I have found that recognizing the Holy Ghost can be a very individual subject. But, in general, I agree with Paul that if a thought comes to mind that is associated with anxiety, nervousness, and worry that is probably paranoia. And it's not necessarily right or wrong to act on these instincts. But, I have found that when a warning voice comes from God to the heart and mind, it generally is accompanied by the feelings of peace, patience, and faith.

Claiming Christ: A Mormon-Evangelical Debate

Robert L. Millet (Professor of Ancient Scripture BYU) and Gerald R. McDermott (Professor of Religion Roanoke College) co-authored a new book entitled Claiming Christ: A Mormon-Evangelical Debate. With the recent presidential candidacy of LDS Mitt Romney and former Baptist minister Mike Huckabee, there has been an increase in press coverage about the LDS church and a little antagonism between Mormons and Evangelicals. This Book by Dr. Millet and McDermott seeks to find common ground between the two faith traditions as well as respectfully discussing distinctions.

Dr. McDermott concedes that Mainstream Christianity has been falsely persecuting the LDS faith. In Dr. McDermott's view, the LDS should be rightly considered a Christian faith as they recognize Jesus Christ as God and the only way to salvation. However, he does take issue with three points of LDS doctrine concerning the relationship between God and man, creation out of nothing, and modern authorized revelation as non-Biblical.

Dr. McDermott says that it is unfair for Evangelicals to claim they hold to the principle of "sola scriptura" in all their beliefs as many Evangelical beliefs such as the Trinity and other creeds are post-Biblical interpretations. So, he concedes, like Mormons, even Evangelicals interpret the Bible through the lens of their faith tradition.

While Dr. McDermott insists that Evangelical interpretation of the Bible is more Orthodox and contextually correct than LDS interpretation, he seems to contradict himself. Dr. McDermott argues that understanding correct doctrine is important in ones ability to know Christ and receive Christ's love, receive forgiveness for sin and salvation, and apply the benefits of Christ's sacrifice generally. However, he goes on to say that while Mormons could learn from Evangelical orthodoxy (correct belief), Evangelicals could learn from Mormon orthokardia (correct heart), and orthopraxis (correct behavior). That said, if Dr. McDermott believes Evangelicals have the corner on the market on doctrine, one wonders why Evangelicals aren't the "good neighbor" examples he praises Mormons to be.

Dr. McDermott criticized the popular Evangelical concept of "Lone Ranger worship" and "cheap grace." Both Dr. Millet and McDermott agree that salvation is based only on the grace alone of Jesus Christ's sacrifice and death and not works. But, they both concede that good works done with pure intent are then a manifestation of the Holy Ghost sanctifying the believer who has accepted Christ, who has been justified by His blood, and who has received of His love. The Bible and the Book of Momon teaches that the flesh is incapable of doing good on its own. Consequently, all good works come from the reception of Christ's love, and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

I think Dr. Millet could have argued stronger for the LDS views on Christ, the pre-existence, creation and modern revelation (including the Book of Mormon). He seems to concede that while the Bible can be interpreted to support all these doctrines, many are more clearly based on mainly extra-biblical sources and modern revelation. Dr. Millet seems content to present the LDS message and is happy to allow Dr. McDermott to argue with him in favor of LDS Christianity.

Dr. McDermott happily presents what he believes is the perfect Biblical parallel to explains the Mormons. He likens the LDS people to the Samaritans of the New Testament. Jesus Christ did preach among them and used them as examples of Christ-like love (parable of the Good Samaritan). Notwithstanding, the Jews considered them apostate and persecuted them. However, Dr. McDermott forgets that according to the Bible the Jews at Jerusalem were probably considered more apostate than the Samaritans.

Dr. Millet and McDermott agree in the end that both Evangelicals and LDS can pray together, and they can work together on social issues of common concern such as strengthening family and community values. While Dr. Millet said he enjoyed attending Evangelical services, Dr. McDermott seemed to discourage evangelicals from worshiping with the LDS saying that our differences in belief on God would make proper worship "impossible."

Mormon Scientists: Proper Questioning and Experimenting

I feel that what makes the LDS Church different that any other church is that its members are expected to question every doctrine. Now, when I say question everything, I do not mean doubt everything. There is a proper way to "study [principles] out in your mind." Proper experimenting and questioning should not be considered doubting and is never done through rebellion, contention or descent.

I try to question everything in the church by performing what Alma in the Book of Mormon refers to as a faith experiment (Alma 32: 27). The first step in this faith experiment is to desire to know the answer to your question and having faith in the principle (Ether 12: 6), I then try doing it (John 7: 17), and finally I try praying about it (James 1: 5). And, without fail, I have recieved the same inspired answers as the Brethern of the church (John 16: 13). That is because we are using the same "Spiritual Method" to communicate with the same God. In this way, God is able to bring believers to a unity of the faith (Eph. 4: 13).

Now I do not mean to say I have all the answers, because I don't. And, please do not misunderstand; I do not condone an attitude of, "I'm not gonna follow until I get my own answer." God has choosen a prophet and we should always follow with an attitude of "faith obedience." We should follow the prophet even when we don't know all the "why's" because we already have a witness of God, of Jesus Christ, or the Book of Mormon, of Joseph Smith, and the restored gospel. We should be expected to act upon that knowledge which God has already given to us. How can we expect to build upon our knowledge when we don't act upon that which we already have? Therefore, "Faith obedience" is the first step in the experiment upon the world. And only then , after the "trial of our faith," will the additional witness come.

It seems to the outsider that the LDS churches expectation of "faith obedience" is more "blind obedience" and "mindless conformity." However, what outsiders fail to realize is that LDS members already have a spiritual witness of the foundation principles (prerequisite for baptism). Therefore, the LDS church expects its members to act according to that knowledge. That is why it seems like our leaders expect unquestioning conformity, because we have already questioned and we have already recieved answers. Members don't need to keep on asking the same questions over and over. We are expected to live according to what we already know and to move on to higher questions. Ofcoarse, as we do this, our witness of the foundation questions are renewed and refreshed continually.

LDS Leadership has righly taught to beware of intellectualism. Intellectuals, as I have come to understand the term, tend to question but focus more on the lack of answers, defining what is not known, and value doubt. Simply defining what is not known is not true science. True science is about experimenting, evidence, discovery, and solving the unknown. Therefore, the process that the scriptures and LDS leadership describe to gain a witness/testimony/revelation of the truth is perfect science. Therefore, I think we could define a new class of LDS scholar who continually "experiments upon the word" through a process of "faith obedience", prayer, and revelation. All LDS members who follow this "Spirtual Method" and perform "faith experiments" could be considered an LDS Spiritual Empiricists or Mormon Scientists.

Mormon's aren't just expected to be spiritual empiricists alone. While proof does not exist, there is ample tangible, physical, 5-sense empirical evidence to support belief. Christ taught that "By their fruits ye shall know them" (Matt. 7: 16, 20). Therefore, I am led to ask: "am I happy?", "am I more prosperous than I otherwise would have been?" And for me the evidence is in overwelming support of God and the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. The LDS theory or theology has empirical validation. According to the research, If I follow the program I can expect to be, on average: wealthier, healthier, happier, live longer, be more educated, and have a stronger family. For the LDS membership, these are the fruit/reward of true Christian faith and discipleship.