Peter and Apostolic Succession

1. PETER

Regarding Peter as "Rock". YES! "Rock" does refer to Peter.  Let me clarify something. It is easy in a Protestant vs. Catholic debate to get bogged down in false dichotomies. But LDS are not Protestant.  I  just want you to understand that Latter-day Saints have no problem with Peter being the "Rock" that Christ built His Church upon.  But for us its not a Peter vs. Revelation thing.  LDS believe Peter, keys, revelation and Jesus Christ were the rock; just not the Papacy. Allow me illustrate what I mean with the following chart.

Definition of Rock:

Catholic:  Peter, Priesthood Keys, Papacy

Protestant: Jesus Christ

Latter-day Saint: Peter, Priesthood Keys, Revelation, Jesus Christ 

Peter was authorized to receive the mind and will of Christ via revelation, thus the Church remains built upon Christ through Peter and Peter's authority and not upon the "philosophies of man mingled with scripture".  LDS believe in the authority of Peter as the Chief Apostle of Christ's Church together with James and John the Revelator who were given keys by the laying on of hands by Jesus Christ Himself and other Transfigured beings (Moses and Elijiah) from previous covenants and dispensations.

What LDS would not agree with is the Tradition that Peter was the first Bishop of Rome and that Peter's keys and authority were passed down through the Papacy.  LDS believe Peter acted not as Bishop of Rome but as Chief Apostle and President of the Church of Jesus Christ.   Peter held primacy over the Church, but not as a bishop or a Pope.

After Peter's death the keys and authority rested with John the Revelator.  Like Moses and Elijiah, John the Revelator was made a Translated being such that Rome could not kill him (he will eventually die at some point as all must die before Resurrection).  This is precisely why John was exiled to Patmos while Rome killed off everyone else.

22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. (New Testament, John, John 21)

When Joseph Smith was called to open a New and Final Dispensation as prophecied by Daniel 2, Ezekiel 37, Isaiah 29, Acts 3:21, Rev 7, etc, During the process of Restoration, Peter, James and John appeared to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery and bestowed upon them the keys and authority of the Holy Apostleship.  So, also in the LDS Church like the Catholics, we believe in the importance of an unbroken line of authority following a period of Apostasy that follows a pattern of human weakness throughout the Bible (Adam ----> Apostasy, Noah ----> Apostasy, Abraham ----> Apostasy, Moses ----> Apostasy, Peter ----> Apostasy, Joseph -----> Second Coming)

So, what do Catholics think of John the Beloved/Revelator.  Why wouldn't he be the natural successor to Peter; not just as Bishop of Rome but the entire Church?  

Apostasy happened quickly. In fact John the Revelator said that the Dragon would devour the child as soon as it was be born.  The child (Christ) was caught up into heaven and the woman (Church) fed into the wilderness (Apostasy) (Rev 12:4-6).

And finally, I would again remind you of the importance of Revelation. The same "still small voice" of God that came into your heart promising to lead you to the truth also leads the leadership of the Church of Jesus Christ.

12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice. (Old Testament, 1 Kings, 1 Kings 19)

32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? (New Testament, Luke, Luke 24)

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (New Testament, John, John 14)

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. (New Testament, 1 Corinthians, 1 Corinthians 12)

2. CHURCH COUNCILS

 

"You have alleged before that the Church Councils were not based upon revelation from God.  Have you ever considered the Council of Jerusalem in Acts chapter 15?"

 

"It is the decision of the holy Spirit and of us not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities, ..." [Acts 15:28]

LDS love Acts 15 and embrace the doctrine of Church Councils.  Acts 15 as well as Acts 2 are excellent examples of Church church councils.  However, the ecumenical councils of Nicea, Constantiople, Trent etc. differ in several critical areas.  The councils were not unanimous and the failure to arrive at unanimity led to schism.

You questioned before why it took so long for the LDS Church to grant priesthood to black members. Joseph Smith was way ahead in apposing and prohibiting slavery of any type or form.  In the LDS Church there was no good and bad slavery.  LDS opposition of slavery in Missouri is what led to the Mormon War and the Gov. Boggs Mormon Extermination Order. 

Joseph Smith it is believed  decided on a policy to limit priesthood to blacks temporarily until hearts changed both inside and outside the Church.  God is not racist, but He knows many of us are and were.  Remember also that LDS gain the highest heaven by baptism and we also offer priesthood and all temple blessings by vicarious proxy. So, ultimately no one misses out on any blessing.

But while the LDS Church started out way ahead on racial issues, after the Civil Rights Movement the LDS Church fell behind. The reason why is because the Apostles were not unified on this issue yet.  However, when a special manifestation was received, unanimity was realized and only then did the Church move forward.

Here is what a honest and humbled Elder McConkie who was one of the 12 Apostles said at the time:

"Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or George Q. Cannon or whoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world."

"It doesn't make a particle of difference what anybody ever said about the Negro matter before the first day of June 1978. It is a new day and a new arrangement, and the Lord has now given the revelation that sheds light out into the world on this subject. As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them. We now do what meridian Israel did when the Lord said the gospel should go to the Gentiles. We forget all the statements that limited the gospel to the house of Israel, and we start going to the Gentiles."

Again, the Councils of Christ Church only move forward with unity.

3. SINFUL MEN

You made a comment about men in the Church being week and sinful by nature. While LDS do not teach that our leaders are infallible, we do teach what Paul taught that members of the Church and Church leadership should be held to a minimum standard.  What is that standard? 1 Cor 11:5.

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. (New Testament, 1 Corinthians, 1 Corinthians 5)

fornicator: no sexual sin

covetous: pay tithes

idolater: accept Christ as Savior

railer: no spousal or child abuse

drunkard: no taking any substance to get high or loaded 

extortioner: no defrauding your neighbor

These virtues are the basis for membership in the LDS Church, they are the basis for spiritual worthiness to enter an LDS Temple.  Any of these sins are the basis for immediate removal from leadership position and church discipline and excommunication.  Virtue together with Charity makes pure religion. 

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. (New Testament, James, James 1)

The Bible always differentiates "wine" (grape juice) with "strong drink".  When Jesus turned water to wine he made juice (not ex nihlo). The comment on its quality was because Ancient people add water to dilute juice that is too sweet for their pallet.  If you leave wine out in the air, it turns to vinegar and not alcohol.

When Noah became a "winebibber", noah cultivated grapes and produced grape juice.  Ham was the first to ferment Noah's wine. After Noah unkowingly drank and became drunken, Ham mocked his father to his other brothers and brought upon him and his descendants a cursing.

4. APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION

"So, what are your thoughts on Apostolic succession?  "

I love apostolic succession just not Papal succession. After the betrayal and death of Judas, the 12 filled the vacancy in their quorum. Then with the persecution and death of Apostles,  we see the calling of additional Apostles: Paul, Barnabas, James (Brother of Jesus), Silas, Apollos, and Epafroditus.

After Peter, James and John conferred the Holy Apostleship on Joseph Smitt and Oliver Cowdery, the keys and authority continue on in the Church in an unbroken line of succession.  I and all LDS prieshood holders can trace our priesthood back to Jesus Christ and keep a line of authority when ordained.

Only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has living 12 Apostles and Seventies.  The following link talks about the earliest known Christian Church discovered in Rihab, Jordan with a floor mosaic dedicated to the 70 disciples.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/jordan/2106752/Worlds-oldest-Christian-church-discovered-in-Jordan.html

5. JOSEPH SMITH

"on a guy who dug up golden plates in the ground, wouldn't show anybody, used magical rocks to translate them out of a hat, couldn't reproduce the translations when they were lost, and who had a wide reputation in his community as a conman who spent his days charging people money to search for buried treasure?"

Joseph Smith was told by the Angel Moroni from the beginning that "good or evil would be spoken of him by all people".   Yes, Joseph Smith has and always will be a very polarizing person.  It is hard for anyone to stay on neutral ground with him.  Joseph Smith's neighbors either loved him or hated him.  In reality, what you say about  Joseph Smith reveals more about you than about him.  Yes, scripture came forth from out of the Earth.  Yes, scripture  was translated with the use of the Urim and Thummin and not a cadre of theologians.   Yes, Joseph Smith did not retranslate the Book of Lehi after his enemies stole and altered the transcript in an attempt to discredit him.  No, Joseph did show the golden plates to 11 witnesses.  Yes, I think I will take a fallible Joseph Smith adolescent sin of "glass looking" over the much more serious adult sins of many Catholic Popes and priests documented over the centuries.

It would be nice for God to give us an obvious outward sign that the Book of Mormon is true except that Jesus Christ sent us the Holy Ghost and wants us to receive the Holy Ghost and ask in the name of Christ and receive "a more sure word of prophecy" and witness by the Holy Ghost.

6. Pre-Existence

Any more thoughts on the Pre-existence of the spirit of man?  1. Does not challege God's "first-ness", "uniqueness", and "before-ness".  2. Man is still a created and contigent being.  3. Man can then be both created and eternal. 4. Eternal Life is more than making it back to heaven and living with God from whence we came.  5. The eternal nature of intelligence that becomes spirit solves the atheists problem of Satan's creation. 6. Pre-existence allows for a fully just and legal infomed consent. 7. Genesis 1 discusses the spiritual creation of man on day 6 and then in Genesis 2 the physical creation of Adam's body on day 7.

                                               

 

 

 

 

Pre-existence and Creation

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (New Testament, Matthew, Matthew 16)

I really love this passage of scripture and I respect its significance and respect all those who also love and respect this scripture. When you and most other Catholic's cite Matt 16:18-19, I can tell this one scripture serves as the basis of belief for many honest Catholics. If the Bible says that Satan could never prevail over the Church, anything outside or apart from the Church is heresy and apostasy. End of story. Everything else must be overlooked.

However, In context of verse 17, Christ told Peter that his testimony and witness that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God was not based on "flesh and blood" but via revelation by Our Heavenly Father. The keys and authority to receive revelation from God is the rock upon which Christ's Church was to be built; not Greek philosophy, theology degrees, divided ecomenical councils, creeds and man's wisdom (Isa. 29:14).

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. (New Testament, Matthew, Matthew 16)

The Church of Christ built on revelation and not "flesh and blood" would never be prevailed against.  Unfortunately, discovering that the Roman Empire could not destroy Christianity, the Empire decided it would control it, and began to "change the times and the laws"; defining doctrine by divided ecumenical council and not unifying revelation. The Roman Empire gave us an authorized version of Christianity and then enforced it.

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; ... 23 Thus he said, The fourth beast (Rome) shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. ....

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws (apostasy): and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. (Old Testament, Daniel, Daniel 7)

Truely, had the Church remained built upon revelation, Satan and the Roman Empire would never have prevailed against it bringing in the Dark Ages of the Great Apostasy.   However, the Bible pattern is clear.  God established His covenant with Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Peter and each time man fell away from the truth.  God didn't leave us but we are the ones who left God.

44 And in the days of these kings (NOT Rome) shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. (Old Testament, Daniel, Daniel 2)

The basis for my knowledge that the Restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is Christ's only true church on the Earth is based on sound reason but also clear and  unmistakable revelation by God the Father after much prayer, study,  pondering, and revelation by the Holy Ghost to both my mind and heart.  The same spirit that came to you promising to lead you to the truth.

I have read the Book of Mormon and prayed and asked God the Eternal Father in the name of Christ if it is His word, and I have received a spiritual and divine manifestation that the Book of Mormon is the word of God.  I am sorry if you need flesh and blood artifacts before you would believe and not simply pray and ask. This is not an easy question considering the changes that would need to be made and the adversity that comes.  Understandably, it can be much easier to be of another faith.  God is still leading you to the truth.

10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good. (Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi, 2 Nephi 33)

OTHER POINTS

I think you got my main point that a "doctrinally unsophisticated" minority of Pre-Creedal Christians Justin Martyr and Origen understood certain scripture to be teaching about pre-existence. I agree with you that  the majority of "learned" Post-Creedal theologians may more generally disagree but early Jewish teaching and the Earliest Church Fathers supported a pre-existence of the spirit. 

I think you also got my point about "bara", "ktizo", and"sunistanó" are verbs which describe God's creative activity in terms of building, shaping, forming, cutting out and putting together.  But, we can agree that this point alone does not, by itself, prove nor disprove pre-existence or ex-nihlo.

As far as interpreting Jer 1:1, Col 1:17, John 9:2, Rev 12:7, Job 38:7, Jude 1:6, Rom 9:13, etc. We can honestly disagree about interpretation of context as well as interpretation of the direct passage.  I guess we will have to agree to disagree about whether or not scripture discussing a pre-existence "war in heaven", "calling and election" (2 Pet 1:10) and a "first estate" involve and apply to a pre-existent spirit of man. 

With regard to 1 Cor 1:17; I think the pre-existent Christ can still be "before" all things and does not rule out a pre-existence of the spirits of mankind. We know Satan and the angels pre-existed and this fact doesn't challenge God's "first-ness", "unique-ness" or "before-ness",

But, I think one of the best scriptural cases for the pre-existence of the spirit of man goes back to the creation story itself and serves as the reason behind an early Talmudic Jewish belief in pre-existence.  

4 ¶These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, 

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: (Old Testament, Genesis, Genesis 2)   

Genesis 1 discusses the 6 days of creation and the creation of man on day 6.  Then on the 7th day in Genesis 2, God tells that all creation was created spiritually before it was created physically.  And then we are told during day 7 that God forms the physical body of Adam and plants the Garden of Eden.  The spirit of man was created on day 6 of creation and then the spirit of Adam was placed in Adam's body on day 7. This is how some Jews understand it or understood it.   No need to divide up the account into 2 parts for the common and priestly class.  

"I do not think St. Paul had the benefit of such a degree of philosophical education".   

 "The problem is that the Hebrew language and its dialects simply were not sophisticated enough to allow for complex discussion of abstract concepts.  In the ancient world, only the greek language was."

On one hand you suggest pre-existence reflects a "hellenic, platonic, gnostic and pagan view" but then on the other hand you say the Paul wasn't Greek enough?  When Christ Himself appears to you and the Holy Spirit is your guide,  I don't think there is much that Paul's Pharisaic background or Greek philosophy could add would have been of much value.  I don't think the Greek language was necessary for the Apostles to fully communicate the true nature of divinity.

Concerning LDS Scholarship on 2nd Macc 7:24.  Yes, this passage as stated does support "ex-nihlo".  So does Shepherd of Hermas 1:6.  But if we are going to cite Pseudepigrapha and Apocrypha then you would enjoy the following link:  

http://chapmanresearch.org/PDF/Pre-existence%20Doctrines%20From%20Ancient%20TextsNF.DOC%20[Compatibility%20Mode].pdf

"a stale mish-mash of old, tired gnostic and manichean heresies that were re-promulgated by a charismatic leader."

Nothing tired about the belief of the pre-existent and eternal nature of the spirit of man.  Nothing tired about believing in eternal marriage, and family relationships. People generally already believe this in their heart.  When talking about doctrine and orthodoxy: Catholics and Protestant preachers deny these fundamental truths but I consistently have heard them turn around and preach these doctrines over the pulpit to their congregations again and again. Attend any funeral.

The intelligence of man being co-existent with God  and the pre-existent nature of the spirit of man does not make man equal with God. God is still unique and man is still created and contingent.  The purpose of this doctrine just means 1. the spirit of man was formed out of intelligence which is the same co-existent material as God. This is how we are considered God's offspring.  God is the most intelligent 2. the spirit of man is a different creation than other of God's creations. 3. Unlike the other creations, mankind as the offspring of God, can potentially be exalted by God and continue in and fully realize its eternal nature.  You cannot become eternal. You either are eternal or you are not. Even though it is not manifest here what we shall be and what and who we are.  We know when He appears we shall be like Him.  4. This doctrine does not diminish God but elevates man and honors God who is a God of gods, King of kings and Lord of lords. 

Finally, the co-existence of intelligence of which our spirits were formed in the pre-existence solves the atheist problem of evil.  Atheists love to exploit the problem of evil to create doubt which is a consequence of ex-nihlo. If God created Satan ex-nihlo then God created a defective spirit in creating Satan.  Or, God gave a mass murderer a gun when He allows Satan to act on the Earth.  However, God has organized and allows all spirits to act according to their own will for a time. However, the essence of what Satan is has always existed and is responsible to itself and will receive the reward according to its actions.  Mankind was also given full legal informed consented before coming to Earth (another important reason for pre-existence).

3 Lessons of Mortality

While here in mortality we must learn 3 things to demonstrate our love and devotion to our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.

1. resist Satan.  (faith and obedience)

2. master the body. (temperance and sacrifice)

3. submit to God's priestood authority. (meekness and humility)

Sadly, so many honorable can't seem to learn lesson 3.  Those who never learn lesson 1 are sons of perdition (satanists) and are destined to reveive wages from the master they serve. Those who never learn lesson 2 are hedonists and are destined for only a Telestial reward. Those who never learn lesson 3 are humanists and are destined for only a Terrestrial reward.  Only those who learn all 3 will merit through Christ a Celestial reward and eternal calling.

Imagine you inherited " eternal lives" and were charged with an eternal stewardship to prepare spirits for their own mortality (mortality prep?).  Could you effectively help other spirits prepare to learn these lessons of mortality if you yourself never learned them?

32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors. (Book of Mormon, Alma, Alma 34)

Law of Justice and Mercy

God's justice is God doing exactly as He has said:

1. "no unclean thing can enter into heaven"

2. "be ye perfect"

3. "If any man be a brother be guilty of fornication (purity), covetousness (tithing), idolatry (true belief), railer( abuse), drunkard (WOW), extortion (honest dealings)... cast from among yourselves that wicked person"  (1 Cor 5:11 = temple questions = God's standard of godliness)

God's mercy is God doing exactly as He has said: 

1. Mercy is NOT an entity or monster that God must satisfy.

2. "Repent and come unto Christ and be perfected in Him"

3. "Deny yourself of all ungodliness, then is his grace sufficent ... ye are perfected in Christ"

4. "Day of this life is a probationary state... time to prepare to meet God" (Alma 12, 34)

5. "souls of just men made perfect"

6. "saved by grave after all we can do"

7. All We Can Do = "make use of the means (grace) the Lord has (already) provided for us" (Alma 60)

8. In this life we have been given grace that we can repent and learn to keep 1 Cor 5:11 perfectly.

Whatever God commands is good:

1. "whatever persuadeth to believe in Christ is good" (Moro 7)

2. "teacheth a man to pray"

3. "enticeth to do good continually, to love God and serve Him"

4. "... service of your fellow being... service of your God"

Whatever Satan commands is evil: 

1." for he [devil] persuadeth no man to do good" (Moro 7)

2. "evil cannot do that which is good"

3. "teacheth a man that he must not pray"

4. an evil man will pray to give a gift begrudgingly or without real intent

5. "In thy name, done many wonderful works?  ... I never new you" (Matt 7)

6. SATAN COMMANDING TO DO GOOD IS CONTROLLED OPPOSITION

Continuing Revelation and Scripture

My LDS friend had a gospel conversation with a colleague at work and gave an excellent analogy about the importance of continuing revelation.

My LDS friend was talking about the Book of Mormon to his work colleague.  The work colleague responded "everything that God wants us to know is in the Bible and the Bible is all I need".

My LDS friend then said, "imagine you taught your child everything they needed to know before they were 8 years old and  then after that you never taught them anything else.  How do you think your child would turn out?  Don't you think your child would need continual guidance?" 

In the same way a young child still needs direction and guidance from his parents, Our Heavenly Father continues to give us guidance and direction to His Church through Prophets and Apostles, continuing revelation and scripture.